Riverworks initiative, Your opinions Options

[Paul]

What are your thoughts about the Riverworks initiative, the bold vision which would bring hundreds of millions of pounds of investment and transform the area by the river - next to Riversway Docklands.

The vision will bring over £800 million of new investment could transform the City's under-used waterway creating:-
A new focus for the Central Lancashire City Region
New homes
New leisure uses on the river and at Riversway/Docklands
New offices and shops
A new central park area and extensive areas for outdoor leisure.


Well thats what they want us to see, or want us to beleive, all major development like this has opposition, and you can read the oppositions points of view at the links below.

From the LEP...............................River group takes its protest to Web
CAMPAIGNERS are taking their opposition to plans for a barrage across the River Ribble to a global audience.
Members of the Save The Ribble Campaign group will stage a protest walk along the banks of the river in Penwortham, near Preston, tomorrow to mark the launch of their website.

Their website is http://save-the-ribble.blogspot.com/ and there is some pictures on it too.

Full LEP article

[Stevil]

I'm with the protesters. I'm sure things can be done to improve the area but not by developing the green spaces and destroying the environment. The council haven't even consulted the people who live there they are just trying to force it through. I bet someone somewhere will be making a huge profit for themselves like the Duke of Westminster with that Tithebarn project.

I'll bet that the council & councillors are hoping for a few backhanders themselves.

[Paul]

I'll bet that the council & councillors are hoping for a few backhanders themselves.

Someone has already suggested that on the PrestonFound group, read the post by JohnrRegan HERE

Was you in Preston at the time of the Docklands development scandal, Stevil?

[Stevil]

No I wasn't but I heard a lot about it when I arrived.

[preston_guy]

What are your thoughts about the Riverworks initiative, the bold vision which would bring hundreds of millions of pounds of investment and transform the area by the river - next to Riversway Docklands.

The vision will bring over £800 million of new investment could transform the City's under-used waterway creating:-
A new focus for the Central Lancashire City Region
New homes
New leisure uses on the river and at Riversway/Docklands
New offices and shops
A new central park area and extensive areas for outdoor leisure.
Well thats what they want us to see, or want us to beleive, all major development like this has opposition, and you can read the oppositions points of view at the links below.
Their website is http://save-the-ribble.blogspot.com/ and there is some pictures on it too.

Full LEP article

The docklands certainly need a new breath of life. I like the idea of transforming that into a leisure attraction. And we certainly need to make better use of our canals and extend them back into the city centre. So I am for some elements of Riverworks although some of it seems unnecessary.

[Accura]

I doubt half the opposition to these plans have actually looked at them. They just hear the word 'Riverside Development' and then straight to action stations... oppose oppose oppose!
They arnt going to be building on the green space on the SR side of the Ribble, they are going to simply be enhancing it so that it will be better for visitors. We're not talking apartments or anything, were simply talking new pathways, cycleways, planting of more trees, better access for visitors etc.
Here is an overall map of the plans:


I dont know how anybody can turn down this plan. This plan actually guaruantees the safety of much of Preston's green space next to the Ribble for the distant future. A whole new county park up at Fishwick, a chance to repair the mistakes at the docks that were made a few decades ago, utilising the old East Lancs line for better transport into the city, extension of the Lancaster Canal along its old route into the city...

And as for putting the Ribble's natural floodplain at risk... I would've thought they would have come up with a more creative excuse than that.

[Bob]

There just a bunch of tree hugggers they protest about anything, fuck them and there nice walks.

[Accura]

I saw the picture of the protestors in the paper the other night. Mostly the usual suspects... old people with nothing better to do.

[Stevil]

I saw the picture of the protestors in the paper the other night. Mostly the usual suspects... old people with nothing better to do.

So how old do you have to be before you are denied an opinion? Just checking so I'll know when to stop.

Did you look at the plans? I see housing areas and industrial units. There are certainly some backhanders going on here. Scummy councillors and their business mates all making a quick buck.

[Accura]

So how old do you have to be before you are denied an opinion? Just checking so I'll know when to stop.

Just something that I've noticed. Some people just actively object to something because:
1. They can
2. They like to feel powerful
3. They object to change altogether
4. They have got little or no other committments

My point is that this 'loud minority' often protest because of these reasons. Because of this, they are harming the future of this city and its people. Frankly I find that selfish.

Did you look at the plans? I see housing areas and industrial units. There are certainly some backhanders going on here. Scummy councillors and their business mates all making a quick buck.

So just because it happens once (decades ago) means that it will happen again does it? Plans on this scale face such a large amount of publicity these days that such things are next to impossible. This is made even more difficult for 2 reasons:
1. The government is currently keeping a close eye on Preston's planning authorities, making it very difficult for any 'quick fixes' to happen
2. There are 3 local authorities involved (SRBC, PCC, CBC) and the land in question is SOUTH RIBBLE land.

As for the plans... housing and industrial units, yes I see them, on land that is currently brownfield. The rest is enhanced green space.

[Stevil]

Still haven't answered the question - how old you have to be to stop having an opinion?

Just something that I've noticed. Some people just actively object to something because:
1. They can
2. They like to feel powerful
3. They object to change altogether
4. They have got little or no other committments

1. They can - Yes it's called exercising you rights. God knows they are being eroded fast enough
2. They like to feel powerful - But they are not. It's the bosses/councillors/MPs who have the power.
3. They object to change altogether - Not always. I want to see a lot of fundamental changes.
4. They have got little or no other commitments - Often people who protest have more commitments than most I find.

[Riversider]

I am very glad you posted the map Accura.

Look at the light brown areas, intended to be 'high quality housing and businesses' - particularly the ones south of the river.

Anyone who knows Preston will recognise where these areas are - you want to build right over the Penwortham Holme sports facilities, football pitches at Vernons and huge areas of green belt/floodplain land, leaving a small patch of green which you say, is 'giving' us a 'central park'.

The environment agency, as you will read at the 'Save the Ribble' blog: http://save-the-ribble.blogspot.com make it quite clear that development in the floodplain can hugely increase the risk of flooding.

This is for a variety of reasons, one being that fields and allotments absorb water, while concrete does not - meaning rain water runs directly into the river.

Couple this with a barrage that permanently raises the water level, and thus the level of ground water underneath our homes, and you are creating the conditions for another Carlisle.

I havent mentioned yet the 250,000 birds, including several endangered species that depend on silts being washed down the river. Other species depend on the corridoor of green on either side of the river to travel inland or to the sea - your mapmakers want to block this corridoor with concrete, roads and houses.

I greatly enjoyed our walk last sunday. Over 90 people were there, including many younger people, who did not complain at all about the rain. Had it been sunny, the numbers could easily have been double.

Contrary to what is suggested by some people here, these were not the 'usual suspects' - I did not see a single dreadlock or dog on a piece of string. What I did see were overwhelmingly pro-river local residents (and local voters...) who want to keep our beautiful river unimpeded in it's flow to the sea, and do not want to see major development in such crucial greenbelt land.

The land 'Riverworks' wants to build on is actually a major asset to Preston people NOW - what other cities can boast such unspoiled beauty so close to the centre?

Instead of denigrating our river, calling it 'bleak', 'barren' and 'underdeveloped' the council should be shouting about how great it is - just as we in 'Save The Ribble' do on our regularly updated blog with plenty of photographs to prove our point!

The Save The Ribble Blog is being applauded all over the internet - we have done more to promote the Ribble in 6 weeks than the council have done in 6 years.

Local people do have a right to express their views, and to point out exactly how stupid some of these proposals are. Perhaps we will save the council tens of thousands of pounds in public money if we can stop them wasting it on futile feasibility studies that will only show how ridiculous the barrage and housing plans actually are.

[Paul]

Hi and welcome Riversider, interesting post there.

I found the recent article on your blog interesting too, hope you don't mind me re-posting it here?

There was an interesting article in today's 'Lancashire Evening Post'.

Apparently South Ribble Council is to allow shops to be built on derelict land near South View Terrace and Eden Street in Leyland.

What was really interesting is that the land is not to be used for housing as there is "an oversupply of housing in the South Ribble area".

If there is no need to build 40 houses on this brownfield site in Leyland, then there is certainly no need to build 4000 houses on a greenfield area next to the Ribble at Penwortham, as is suggested in the 'Riverworks' proposals..."

[Accura]

This is for a variety of reasons, one being that fields and allotments absorb water, while concrete does not - meaning rain water runs directly into the river.

There is no reason why a system can not be planned to make sure that the water is safely absorbed into the ground IE: patches of green space, channels etc.

Couple this with a barrage that permanently raises the water level, and thus the level of ground water underneath our homes, and you are creating the conditions for another Carlisle.

The barrage will not permanently raise the water level. It can control the water level. Personally, I think it needs to be raised as it will help the river look more like a river as opposed to a polluted mud pit.

I havent mentioned yet the 250,000 birds, including several endangered species that depend on silts being washed down the river. Other species depend on the corridoor of green on either side of the river to travel inland or to the sea - your mapmakers want to block this corridoor with concrete, roads and houses.

If you look at the map, you can see that very little of the riverbank is actually having any buildings contructed on its side. I'm sure that the birds can manage to keep their wings flapping for a few more metres...

I greatly enjoyed our walk last sunday. Over 90 people were there, including many younger people, who did not complain at all about the rain. Had it been sunny, the numbers could easily have been double.

90 people out of a plan which affects 350,000 people.

Contrary to what is suggested by some people here, these were not the 'usual suspects' - I did not see a single dreadlock or dog on a piece of string. What I did see were overwhelmingly pro-river local residents (and local voters...) who want to keep our beautiful river unimpeded in it's flow to the sea, and do not want to see major development in such crucial greenbelt land.

The areas where the development will be are already affected by urbanisation, most of which was placed there during the industrial revolution. The Ribble is a beautiful river... further upstream. In Preston, its quite frankly a disgrace. I live on the Ribble plain near Hutton and often walk beside the river up there. You cant get any less than 20 metres from the water most of the time because so much junk has been washed up. It looks more like an industrial wasteland than a riverbank. The most beautiful part of the riverbank in Preston is Avenham Park and... what do you know! Its man made! Kind of like the park on the opposite side will be.

The land 'Riverworks' wants to build on is actually a major asset to Preston people NOW - what other cities can boast such unspoiled beauty so close to the centre?

Vernon Carus? Penwortham Holme? Not exactly everybody's first choice when they want a relaxing walk.
Besides, your about 200 years too late. The land in question is criss-crossed with railway embankments (mostly abandoned, but would once again serve the people with Riverworks), dotted with several areas of industry.

Instead of denigrating our river, calling it 'bleak', 'barren' and 'underdeveloped' the council should be shouting about how great it is - just as we in 'Save The Ribble' do on our regularly updated blog with plenty of photographs to prove our point!

If the council promoted Preston on the Ribble as it is now, we would be a national laughing stock.

Local people do have a right to express their views, and to point out exactly how stupid some of these proposals are.

Quite right, and to point out how fantastic some of these proposals are.

Perhaps we will save the council tens of thousands of pounds in public money if we can stop them wasting it on futile feasibility studies that will only show how ridiculous the barrage and housing plans actually are.

That remains to be seen.

Question for you. Do you support the Tithebarn Project?

[Riversider]

I live on the Ribble plain near Hutton and often walk beside the river up there. You cant get any less than 20 metres from the water most of the time because so much junk has been washed up. It looks more like an industrial wasteland than a riverbank.

- I would take this as more evidence of the council's criminal neglect of our river, and their misunderstanding of it's potential. Accura.

Huge opposition is gathering to the ideas of a barrage and the massive housing estate on the south bank of the River. There will be some significant news about this rising tide of opposition posted on the Save The Ribble blog soon.

There are one or two good ideas in the Riverworks proposals, but these are totally outweighed by the potentially disastrous consequences to wildlife of a barrage, and by the stupidity of building 4000 houses in an area that is both greenbelt and floodplain.

My advice to the council, if they want to save the good parts of the 'Riverworks' proposals, would be to immediately jettison any notion of a barrage on the Ribble, or for any further housing on the green belt / floodplain area.

We will soon be putting together our own, alternative set of proposals, first of all by actually asking local people what they want (an idea that Preston City Council might do well to imitate) this will ensure that our ideas will include suggestions that are actually useful and wanted by Preston and South Ribble people. Keep an eye on the Save The Ribble Blog for further details.

[Yr dyn Gwyrdd]

Accura clearly doesn't know the green belt area of South Ribble being proposed for the so-called "Central Park" development, nor has Accura read the Riverworks documents... this proposal is for 4,000 hew houses, plus businesses and riverside restaurants etc, with a small portion left opposite Avenham and Miller Parks turned into a formal park. This land is designated green belt, most of it is natural countryside and supports a wide variety of wildlife and plantlife. The brownfield site at the back is already ear-marked for new housing and most local people have no problem with that. I suggest Accura takes a walk upriver to see. Those pink box-shaped blocks on the plan posted by Accura are new housing and businesses proposed for this area of meadows, woodland, a Nature Reserve, and amateur league football fields, allotments, and all our other local amenities here. And, er, the footpaths already exist, but a few more certainly wouldn't go amiss.
It is the case that the rubbish which litters some parts of the riverbank could be cleared up, if the council had a mind to, but it might be an idea if Accura checks out the RSPB website and has a look to see how important the Ribble is to wildlife, and then make an informed decision.

There is no reason why a system can not be planned to make sure that the water is safely absorbed into the ground IE: patches of green space, channels etc.
The barrage will not permanently raise the water level. It can control the water level. Personally, I think it needs to be raised as it will help the river look more like a river as opposed to a polluted mud pit.
If you look at the map, you can see that very little of the riverbank is actually having any buildings contructed on its side. I'm sure that the birds can manage to keep their wings flapping for a few more metres...
90 people out of a plan which affects 350,000 people.
The areas where the development will be are already affected by urbanisation, most of which was placed there during the industrial revolution. The Ribble is a beautiful river... further upstream. In Preston, its quite frankly a disgrace. I live on the Ribble plain near Hutton and often walk beside the river up there. You cant get any less than 20 metres from the water most of the time because so much junk has been washed up. It looks more like an industrial wasteland than a riverbank. The most beautiful part of the riverbank in Preston is Avenham Park and... what do you know! Its man made! Kind of like the park on the opposite side will be.
Vernon Carus? Penwortham Holme? Not exactly everybody's first choice when they want a relaxing walk.
Besides, your about 200 years too late. The land in question is criss-crossed with railway embankments (mostly abandoned, but would once again serve the people with Riverworks), dotted with several areas of industry.
If the council promoted Preston on the Ribble as it is now, we would be a national laughing stock.
Quite right, and to point out how fantastic some of these proposals are.
That remains to be seen.

Question for you. Do you support the Tithebarn Project?

[Godspeed!]

[quote name='Accura' date='May 18 2006, 05:21 PM' post='2198']
Just something that I've noticed. Some people just actively object to something because:
1. They can
2. They like to feel powerful
3. They object to change altogether
4. They have got little or no other committments

I'm not sure why Accura and Bob have to be so insulting or why they feel the need to personalise these issues. Why don't you try providing some constructive argument about why you think a barrage and building on our green spaces is such a good idea?
And Accura needs to take a closer look at the Preston City Council Masterplan - the proposed building goes right down to the River's edge on an area which is currently green fields.

[Accura]

Accura clearly doesn't know the green belt area of South Ribble being proposed for the so-called "Central Park" development

I've lived in Penwortham for 14 years. For 2 years I went to Vernon's every Friday night to watch my uncle play for the Vernons footy team and I try to make a point to cycle the length of the south Ribble bank from Hutton to London Road once every few months.

nor has Accura read the Riverworks documents

I have read all the PCC PDF files on Riverworks and spoken to the concept architects on various occasions.

this proposal is for 4,000 hew houses, plus businesses and riverside restaurants etc, with a small portion left opposite Avenham and Miller Parks turned into a formal park

Hardly a small portion. Do you not think a formal park would be better than what is there now?

And, er, the footpaths already exist, but a few more certainly wouldn't go amiss.

So why object to these plans?

It is the case that the rubbish which litters some parts of the riverbank could be cleared up, if the council had a mind to

The best option is to keep the river high enough to make these invisible. We arnt just talking about junk here, we are talking about natures waste.

checks out the RSPB website and has a look to see how important the Ribble is to wildlife, and then make an informed decision

I am well aware that the Ribble is important to wildlife, yes, at the estaury, yes through the Ribble Valley and Yorkshire but NOT in Preston.

Why don't you try providing some constructive argument about why you think a barrage and building on our green spaces is such a good idea?

I have done more times than I can count on sites all over the web. Most opposition people fail to recognise it because they dont want to.

[Riversider]

I've lived in Penwortham for 14 years. For 2 years I went to Vernon's every Friday night to watch my uncle play for the Vernons footy team and I try to make a point to cycle the length of the south Ribble bank from Hutton to London Road once every few months.

You will therefore know that both Vernons and Penwortham Holmes are used by hundreds of Preston and South Ribble people every day, all year round, to play football and other sports - with allotments nearby cultivated by devoted gardners: hardly an area of land that is 'underused'. You will be kicking hundreds of football loving kids off this land to build your housing estate, and substituting it with a 'water sports park' that might get used for a couple of weeks every summer.

There is no need whatsoever for 4000 new houses in Preston or South Ribble - as you will see if you read this: Riverworks - The Housing Sums That Dont Add Up. Only in a council like Preston can 0+0=4000.

You admit that the Ribble Estuary is important for wildlife - so is the area near Preston, which supports a great diversity of wildlife, far more than a formal park ever could. The wildlife that inhabits the estuary depends on the silts that are washed down the river. Building a barrage would disrupt this flow and destroy the environment that so many endangered species depend on.

Artificially raising the level of the river, so that it is permanently at high tide WILL have consequences for the level of standing water under our houses. Preston City Council cannot be allowed to take such risks with our homes and our environment.

[Paul]

I've just read an interesting observation by the LEP columnist Phil Widdows at his blog Shooting from the lip

In it he writes

Whether the barrage itself is a good idea or not is up for debate (it's far too expensive and will never get built, but that needn't spoil a good fight). What must not be allowed to happen is for Preston City Council to spend public money on studies to test the feasibility of a housing scheme which, under its own planning policy, stands as much chance of coming to reality as Togo have of winning the World Cup.

I'd tend to agree with him on this, I really can't see this barage coming to fruitation.