[Riversider]

Preston and South Ribble councils are holding a consultation on the Local Development Framework.

(Perhaps this is the first you have heard of it? - no surprises there then)

If the voices of local people are to be heard, it is VERY IMPORTANT that we register to be consulted - otherwise the councils will be able to foist all kinds of socially and environmentally damaging ideas on us and our River and pretend that they asked us about it.

Here is a link to where you can find out more:

http://save-the-ribble.blogspot.com/2006/0...y-in-local.html

[Accura]

Not everybody agrees with you though...

[Mr Fell]

Not everybody agrees with you though...

In my view its about time more say was given to existing inhabitants views before major re - development works are undertaken.

I think `consultations' etc more often than not are just a load of bullshit, and its more a case of ` yes have your say - but fuck you - we`re going to do it anyway'

What say you !

[Paul]

Not everybody agrees with you though...

That maybe so, but the public should have a say and as far as I can make out, Riversider is telling us how we can. Even though Riversider has spun her post as an anti viewpoint, there is nothing stopping pros from registering to encourage the council's plans.

[Riversider]

Riversider has spun her post as an anti viewpoint

I am a male!

Not everybody agrees with you though...

I think far fewer agree with Preston City Council's grandiose and ecologically disastrous fantasies, than those who agree that we should keep our allotments, sports fields and river as they are - because they are all valued by the local community, and it is time our councils started valuing them too - they are assets to our area and should not be sold off to greedy developers.

I think `consultations' etc more often than not are just a load of bullshit, and its more a case of ` yes have your say - but fuck you - we`re going to do it anyway'

What say you !

You are quite probably right Mr Fell, and have probably echoed exactly the conversations that have recently taken place in certain local Town Halls - the profit opportunities of big developers will always outweigh the views of local people in the minds of our politicians and officials - but if we do not participate in the consultations, and do our best to put forward the views of local people, and the case for the local environment, they will be able to claim that noone disagrees with their plans - so however distasteful we find it, we must play their games for a little while longer...

[Paul]

I am a male!

Sorry, I don't know why I thought you as a female.

[Riversider]

Easily done on the internet Paul - I have done the same myself many times, with hilarious consequences...

[France Soir]

Riversider

You stick up for what you believe. It matters not that not all agree with you.

Speak out and do not be afraid.

[Accura]

I think far fewer agree with Preston City Council's grandiose and ecologically disastrous fantasies, than those who agree that we should keep our allotments, sports fields and river as they are - because they are all valued by the local community, and it is time our councils started valuing them too - they are assets to our area and should not be sold off to greedy developers.

We had a similar issue when it was announced that the bus station was going to be demolished. The 'Save Preston Bus Station' campaigners thought they had the majority simply because they were making a lot of noise. It eventually turned out that there was an overwhelming silent majority in favour of its demolition.
You may be right about public opinion concerning certain aspects of the Riverworks project (mainly regarding the barrage and Frenchwood Recreation ground) but...
Do you think that the majority of Prestonians want the Docks to stay the way they are? I know for a fact that this is a hot issue, and many hated the way they were redeveloped.
Do you think that the majority of Prestonians wanted the London Road running track to stay the way it was?
Do you think that the majority of Prestonians dont want the old East Lancs railway utilised to relieve Preston's traffic problems?
Or the terrible state of the riverbank?
Or the Lancaster Canal extension?

You dont give people the full story in your campaign. You only highlight the negative points, and people dont hear the pro's behind the plan. If you took a more balanced stance on your campaign, you might have more success, not to mention help this city get off the ground.

[Riversider]

You may be right about public opinion concerning certain aspects of the Riverworks project (mainly regarding the barrage and Frenchwood Recreation ground)

You should read our blog more carefully - we have never objected to EVERY part of the Riverworks proposals - ideas such as revamping the docks are not going to raise any hackles anywhere - that would just be a matter of the council sorting out it's own mess.

What we do object to in the Riverworks proposals are the very idea of a barrage - which would disrupt the flow of silts and nutrients down to the ecologically vital Ribble Estuary - potentially destroying a habitat that currently supports 250,000 birds and fish like the threatened Atlantic Salmon. The estuary is covered by all kinds of legal protections - The barrage would also have the effect of raising the water table underneath areas near the river. It would also raise the risk of floods because the silts that accumulate behind the barrage would reduce the capacity of the river - making it more likely to flood when it is in spate after heavy rains or thaws (unless the council is willing to pay out big money to have it regularly dredged and to pump out the water from beneath people's homes - as has happened with the Cardiff Bay Barrage).

The other aspects of the Riverworks proposals we object to are plans to build huge areas of housing (4000 houses altogether) on Frenchwood Rec, Penwortham Holme sports fields and Vernons, the green farming land around what has been designated for an ornamental 'central park' and over people's allotments.

These areas are all assets to the local community - a 'water sports park' will never be used by local kids in the way that local football pitches are now - every day of the week, all year round, almost any weather - losing the allotments would be a great loss to our community, for reasons we go into in detail on the 'Save The Ribble' blog.

The council and their developer friends are trying to smuggle in an extensive ecologically damaging housing development under a hyped up scheme that offers no real benefits to local people - we don't think Preston people will let you get away with it again.

[Accura]

The other aspects of the Riverworks proposals we object to are plans to build huge areas of housing (4000 houses altogether) on Frenchwood Rec, Penwortham Holme sports fields and Vernons, the green farming land around what has been designated for an ornamental 'central park' and over people's allotments.

Okay...
Frenchwood Rec, fair enough.
Penwortham Holme: Are you sure this has been designated for housing? IIRC, the green space at the Holme would still be there according to the plans.
Vernons: Although Vernons is somewhat good, on the most part its a waste of space. The crown green bowling, the cricket field, the labour club... fine. What I dont like is the acres upon acres of UNUSED football pitches. Only 2 of the football pitches are used on a regular basis as far as I'm aware, and they are rarely used at the same time. This land should be put to better use.
The Green Farming land: Fair point. But this farmland isnt really 'countryside'. I would probably support you on this one if I thought the farmers would be better off staying there, but I dont believe that for a second. We arnt talking about a nice rural setting here. We are talking about a large green space that is sandwiched in between a CITY CENTRE (for God's sake) and a huge suburban mass. Its certainly not the best place for farming. There is disused farmland all over Lancashire because farmers are struggling to keep going. If farmers in the best environments are struggling, then somebody who farms just off Leyland Road certainly isnt helping themselves.
And by using this as one of your arguments contradicts one of your other major arguments. How does having this space benefit the local community? Farmers are not just farmers, they are landowners, and in my experience, I've found that they like to ensure that people know their land is private property. I live in Hutton at the other end of Penwortham and when I go walking to the river across the fields, you wouldnt believe the amount of times I've been told to F off by greedy farmers (BTW, its worth noting that the farmers intentions are no different than the developers). They couldnt give a toss about the environment, as long as they make money and I'm sure that if they could, they would sell all the land off to people like Tesco, JJB, and all the other big box retailers. At least with this governed plan, we are getting something quality.
Allottments: They are DISGUSTING. I have lived in this area all my life and they have NEVER got any better. If the owners of these want to keep them standing, maybe they should put a little more effort into making them look good. Having a bunch of ugly allottments along the Ribble is no better than having luxury apartment blocks. If they want to keep them, fair enough. But they could at least make an effort so that one of our city's busiest gateways doesnt look like a slice of the Soviet Union.

These areas are all assets to the local community - a 'water sports park' will never be used by local kids in the way that local football pitches are now - every day of the week, all year round, almost any weather.

You sure about that? In the US, Canada, and Australia, this kind of thing is pretty commonplace, and like it or not, our culture is Americanised.
And besides, Penwortham Holme isnt an asset to the local community. Did you know that any kid playing on Penwortham Holme is in fact trespassing? Its true. There are signs all round the place saying it. Unless you pay to join one of PNE's youth soccer groups, your breaking the law. And I know for a fact that the Holme isnt used everyday. the only time I ever see it being used is Sunday morning.

[Riversider]

Anyone can see that on this map, where Penwortham Holme is now, is designated for housing:

What I dont like is the acres upon acres of UNUSED football pitches. Only 2 of the football pitches are used on a regular basis as far as I'm aware

My kids belong to local youth teams (not affiliated to PNE), they have played and trained many times on Penny Holmes on weekday evenings and on Vernons, on the LOWER FIELDS - where other matches involving other age groups have been going on at the same time.

I have attended huge football tournaments at Penny Holmes, with hundreds of people in attendance.

The fact that you are not aware of the heavy usage of these areas by local footballers (and by footballers from as far away as Clitheroe) is very concerning, since you clearly work for part of the council responsible for making planning decisions that affect these areas - it doesnt seem like you have even been bothered to find out.

If farmers in the best environments are struggling, then somebody who farms just off Leyland Road certainly isnt helping themselves

Nice to hear that your plans to build thousands of houses over beautiful green fields is motivated purely out of concern for local farmers. Local people enjoy having green fields to look at.

Allottments: They are DISGUSTING. I have lived in this area all my life and they have NEVER got any better. If the owners of these want to keep them standing, maybe they should put a little more effort into making them look good. Having a bunch of ugly allottments along the Ribble is no better than having luxury apartment blocks. If they want to keep them, fair enough. But they could at least make an effort so that one of our city's busiest gateways doesnt look like a slice of the Soviet Union.

Local allotment keepers will be very interested to hear such offensive and ignorant views expressed about them by people who should know better. Perhaps you should make an effort to find out about the immense social benefits and increasing popularity of allotment keeping - you will find such information easily at hand on the 'Save The Ribble' blog.

I recently watched my son playing football on a wet sunday morning on the lower fields at Vernons - here is a picture I took at the time

- there were at least 80 people there, despite the rain, watching two separate matches. There were probably at least as many on the upper fields too, but I did not venture that high. Later that day, the sun came out, and I was at the marina on the docks. Despite the now balmy weather, only one person was using a boat on the marina. This is why I believe that a water sports park will be no substitute for the loss of our football fields, however 'Americanised' you want us to be...

[Riversider]

The inimitable Phil Widdows has added his own rather unusual view to this debate:

Phil Widdows

[Paul]

The inimitable Phil Widdows has added his own rather unusual view to this debate:

Phil Widdows

Yeah I read that already and the responces the two of you have posted I've been following his blog since the begining, he writes what he sees and he don't care if he upsets. Top blogger he is and I like his column in the LEP.

[Accura]

Riversider, I'll respond to your post sometime early during the week. Bit tied up with everything at the moment.

[Riversider]

Which week is that Accura? Two weeks have passed since your promise to reply 'early in the week'.

[Accura]

Patience I have a very busy life.

[Riversider]

Another 2 weeks have passed, and we are still waiting.

Why can't Preston Council just make a simple public Statement that it is dropping the proposals for a barrage and for housing in the Ribble floodplain which are so obviously stupid and unpopular?

Perhaps then you could salvage the remainder of the Riverworks proposals.

[Accura]

Anyone can see that on this map, where Penwortham Holme is now, is designated for housing:

Not all of it is. There is still a substantial amount of green space left which will hopefully be turned into a PUBLIC space for sports.

My kids belong to local youth teams (not affiliated to PNE), they have played and trained many times on Penny Holmes on weekday evenings and on Vernons, on the LOWER FIELDS - where other matches involving other age groups have been going on at the same time.

The fact that your kid's youth team is not affiliated to PNE is irrelevent. The fact remains that any member of the public making their own private use of Penwortham Holme for simple recreation without the permission of PNE (which I'm assuming your kid's team did) is trespassing and can be removed by the police. Its written on signs all around the place.
Yes, the occasional tournament does happen at Penwortham Holme and the lower fields at Vernons. Is there any reason why these tournaments cant take place at the new sprting factilities which will be built, and designed to cater for the large numbers of people that these tournaments attract? (which the current venues are certainly NOT)

I have attended huge football tournaments at Penny Holmes, with hundreds of people in attendance.

And you will still be able to, with greater ease than you can at the moment. Maybe you noticed at the tournament you attended that Penny Holme is not designed to cater for that many people. There are only around 3 grass pitches (I realise I may be wrong there) and the car parking isnt satisfactory. Note the large numbers of people that are forced to park on the bypass link road, causing congestion.

The fact that you are not aware of the heavy usage of these areas by local footballers (and by footballers from as far away as Clitheroe) is very concerning,

I am well aware of the heavy useage. I still think that the usage doesnt justify the excessive amount of space that is currently reserved for it. I find it concerning that people in Clitheroe are forced to come all the way to Penwortham to use football pitches. Maybe its Clitheroe's lack of football pitches that we should be concerned about, not Penwortham's!

since you clearly work for part of the council responsible for making planning decisions that affect these areas - it doesnt seem like you have even been bothered to find out.

I'm an 18 year old college student and I work for Matalan.......................................
I dont need to go trapsing through pages of statistics to find out how often youth footy teams play. It was only a few years ago that I myself was playing for those teams (in Penwortham), and even less time ago that I would go and watch my younger brother play for these teams. In the 5 years or so that I played for various youth teams, I NEVER played at Penny Holme and only once at Vernons. All the rest were at LanCom, Priory High School, Middleforth Primary School, Cop Lane Primary School, Mary Mags and Hurst Grange Park.
And the list doesnt end there. There are LOADS of other possible venues that could be used.

Nice to hear that your plans to build thousands of houses over beautiful green fields is motivated purely out of concern for local farmers. Local people enjoy having green fields to look at.

I can appreciate that people value aesthetics, but in the end of the day, these people have chosen to live in a city, and when they chose that place to live they had to be prepared for the fact that cities are places of changed. If anybody can appreciate this, its the older generations who will remember when the 'rural landscape' you go on about was once covered in chimneys and thick smog. Remember the Penwortham Power Station?

Local allotment keepers will be very interested to hear such offensive and ignorant views expressed about them by people who should know better. Perhaps you should make an effort to find out about the immense social benefits and increasing popularity of allotment keeping - you will find such information easily at hand on the 'Save The Ribble' blog.

I can fully appreciate gardening as a hobby, and I have nothing against people doing it. But why there? Its the gateway to our town! And no offence to the holders, but they are pretty ugly places. If it was pretty landscaped gardens with lots of flowers, my views would be very different, but all I see are rotten sheds, greenhouses with smashed glass, and vegetable patches. While it may be enjoyable to achieve growing your own food (and in our commercialized world, I'm all for home grown products), its not pretty. I would suggest allotments going somewhere else on the edge of town, not right near the centre.

Despite the now balmy weather, only one person was using a boat on the marina. This is why I believe that a water sports park will be no substitute for the loss of our football fields, however 'Americanised' you want us to be...

The answer to that is simple. Its got nothing to do with what people do or dont like, its to do with rich and poor. I went to Toronto last year, and people use the water like we have kick-abouts in the street. Why? Because their water facilities are community based. Its simply incredible and puts our own leisure centres to shame. They had all manner of sporting facilities in one waterside area.

[Riversider]

If you are a youth team manager and want to play a match on Penny Holmes, you book a pitch and pay a fee - in exactly the same way as you would on the council-owned pitches on Moor Park.

Perhaps you are now beginning to realise the extremely heavy usage of these football pitches. This is because PRESTON IS A FOOTBALL TOWN - it is part of our culture and our heritage, and it is a useful and healthy occupation for our kids. The teams from Clitheroe that come down do so because they are part of the local league - perhaps you have never heard of away matches?

Matches are no longer played at Hurst Grange - SRBC recently saw fit to take away the container that was used for changing rooms and storing goalposts and corner flags - another pitch lost to local football.

Preston people also enjoy growing vegetables - and the allotments ARE at the edge of the city (in fact they are on the Penwortham side of the river). They have been there for far longer than I have lived, they are a community facility that belong to the people.

People here did NOT choose to live in a CITY. When I moved here 18 years ago it was a TOWN. A few people on the council felt that being City Councillors rather than Town Councillors would make them more important, and their new exalted status seems to have gone to their heads: They have come up with a barrage of wacky ideas that display a deep lack of judgement and a dangerously irresponsible attitude to community facilities and to the environment - if they continue with them they will find their fingers badly burned - the opposition they have seen up to now is just a taste of the determination of local people to preserve their facilities and defend the environment.

I repeat my question:

Why can't Preston Council just make a simple public Statement that it is dropping the proposals for a barrage and for housing in the Ribble floodplain which are so obviously stupid and unpopular?

Perhaps then you could salvage the remainder of the Riverworks proposals.